Tag: Pitching

ADVICE, Interview, People

Amanda Burnett: Agent-At-Large

|Amanda.Burnett|

What’s the first thing that pops into your mind when I say… “TV/FILM AGENT”?

One might dive right into the stereotypical Hollywood answers:  Slimy? Lazy? Cynical? Manipulative? Money first, client last? Emotionless? Yeah, I could go on and on. And there are those out there that might fit into one or more of these categories. They’ve certainly been depicted in this manner on screen. Shows like Entourage or most recently, the hilarious half hour, Hacks… Or, they’ve been defined in a more layered, complicated, and humane way as seen in the beautifully done French series, Call My Agent! 

And then there’s Amanda Burnett.

Amanda is one of the hardest working agents I know. She is supportive, open, and kind. Easily one of my top favs. Nothing against the others. There are some wonderful ones out there, but I love how honest and down to earth she is. Not everything is agenda driven. She’s willing to help people out even when there’s nothing for her to gain. I can certainly attest to this firsthand.

RS: You’re trying to sell someone on being an agent. Describe your job in a logline. 

AB: I get to work with great creative minds and it’s also super fun and flexes some creative muscles. There’s the “business” side to it but it’s very creative too.

RS: Did you always know you wanted to do something in this industry or were you headed down a different path early on? 

AB: Always wanted to do something in “the arts” or entertainment. Wanted to be a ballet dancer or an actor. Then later a writer/director, but realized my personality couldn’t deal with NOT having a steady paycheck so this was a happy compromise.

What is a big misconception about being an agent?

AB: That we’re all mean and slimy and overly aggressive. Some are. Most aren’t. Also, that we make millions. Those days are over.

RS: Agents are known to always be “in a meeting” multiple times a day/week. What exactly transpires during these internal  meetings? 

AB: Really runs the gamut. In internal staff meetings we run through grids of open staff/directing/open writing projects. People bring up specific projects they need help on/elements for. People give general informational updates about their coverage or other business info.

Then meetings or calls with executives and clients…. Could be anything from hearing practice pitches, strategizing on projects (for clients), connecting with execs about how we can do more business together. General catch ups.

RS: How many emails do you get a day?

AB: Too many. And I hate a full inbox so I file or delete neurotically.

RS: How many hours a day are you on the phone? 

AB: Also too many. It depends. I truly find most meetings can be calls and most calls can be emails. Hate to say it. I’m a big efficiency person. Many people are not.

RS: What’s both your favorite and most difficult aspect of your job? 

AB: Cheesy but true: Making clients’ dreams come true. Getting them that staff job they really wanted or selling a project and/or seeing it through to series. Worst: We feel the rejection too and it sucks. And there’s lots of rejection. The bar for staffing and selling has never been higher/harder.

RS: Several years ago, you lost your hearing and received cochlear implants. What was it that caused it and how did that experience change or redefine you?

AB: I’ll probably never know. They test everything when something that drastic happens to you and they didn’t find anything blatantly wrong. They said it’s probably a virus that went rogue and attacked my inner ear cells (which don’t regenerate). “Unspecified autoimmune condition” they like to say.

I hope I’ve lived with a bit more carpe diem since that happened and I like to think I sweat the small stuff less. I did relocate to Nashville recently and I’m going to continue to work remote, which is something I wanted to do for a while.

RS: Do you have an idiosyncrasy that you feel defines you? 

AB: I’m pretty “detail-oriented.” (That’s a euphemism for “anal,” ha.) Like I said I need a tidy inbox, a clean apartment and I’m the girl who unpacks her suitcase as soon as she lands back from vacation!

RS: I think having a job where creatives depend on you to secure them a job would be one of the most daunting, stressful jobs out there. How do you avoid the emotional toll it has the potential to take on you? 

AB: That’s always the challenge. I love this job and I think I’ve found a way to make it work but it’s taken a toll on my health mentally and physically. Work/life balance and separating the two. I’m hoping this move to Nashville gives me a little bit more of that balance/inner peace.

RS: How do you know you’ve come across a writer or talent that is undeniable? Do you think there is a common denominator that defines that “X” factor? 

AB: I actually don’t think there’s an X factor. So much of this is subjective. One agent’s “Phoebe Waller Bridge” might be uninteresting to someone else, especially in the beginning. You just sort of know. It’s a gut feeling.

(Side Note: I’m going to ignore the fact that there might be someone out there that thinks Phoebe Waller Bridge is “uninteresting.”)

On Advice:

You should ask for what you need and go after the things you want fearlessly.

RS: What advice do you wish you would have received early on in your career and what’s a piece of advice you think is critical to pass along for those starting out as agents? 

AB: I just wish I wasn’t as scared and timid all the time. The worst people can say is no. You should ask for what you need and go after the things you want fearlessly.

RS: What’s a “How to” piece of advice you could give to writers in order to navigate this over saturated marketplace we’re in today?

On navigating the marketplace (for writers):

Don’t take it personally or get discouraged. And just keep writing and creating.

AB: This is hard but don’t take it personal or get discouraged. And just keep writing and creating. You can always write your way out of a slump or a slow period.

RS: How do you avoid work burn out? Do you have a hobby you love that acts as a de-stressor? 

AB: I wish I had more interesting hobbies. I like working out and gardening and travel. And eating at fun restaurants and making time for friends.

RS: Favorite all time meal? 

AB: Zinque on Melrose: Le bowl with chicken (sub cauliflower rice), Tuna Tartine, Glass of Sauvignon Blanc.

RS: Is there a cause near and dear to your heart and if so, why?

AB: I’m a product of California public schools and they were bad when I was attending, but I feel like they’ve never been worse. Public schools are important and I really do believe in them. I think we need to put more attention on our public schools and make sure they’re well-funded and functional. I feel it’s important to speak up and I try to give money when and where I can. 

RS: If you had to choose: bungee jump or sky dive? 

AB: Neither! I’ll try almost anything once…but not that.

RS: Do you have any phobias? (scared of spiders, heights, etc.)

AB: Nothing too crazy. I’m sort of a hypochondriac in general, but oddly not about Covid. I think remembering as horrible as Covid is, it has a 99% recovery rate. 

RS: What is your favorite type of show? 

AB: I love period/historical dramas, soaps and YA soaps/dramas.

RS: What are you binge watching right now? 

AB: YOU, SUCCESSION, WINTER HOUSE/VANDERPUMP RULES, CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM, OUTLANDER

RS: When distressed, what comforted you most as a child? 

AB: Probably food? Should I go to therapy for that? Food and TV? (Sounds like everything that’s wrong with America, lol)

RS: Did you have a favorite stuffed animal or toy growing up? Do you still have it? 

AB: A golden retriever stuffed animal named Puddles. Still have him and he made the move with me to Nashville!

RS: What is missing in our industry? What do you think we need to do better? 

AB: I still think we have a socio-economic problem which makes our industry very homogenous. Everyone starts as an assistant and assistants make no money by LA cost-of-living standards. That doesn’t work if your parents can’t help you financially. My parents were barely able to help, but they did pay my phone bill and I struggled a lot in the beginning.

I still think we have a socio-economic problem which makes our industry very homogenous. Assistants make no money by LA cost-of-living standards.

I didn’t have a car my first year at UTA. I could never keep up with the joneses. When you have a scenario like this eventually the workforce will lack diversity. And I mean diverse in every sense of the word. I don’t know why Hollywood leadership continues to be surprised by this.

RS: How often do you take on new clients? 

AB: Not much anymore. I have so many clients already and I like to give 120% to the folks I have so I sign very selectively now.

RS: Have you ever lost a client? If so, was it something you felt was avoidable? 

AB: Yes, and this is where I’ve gotten better at shutting down my emotions. My first client ever, fired me. Blamed something another department did, but it still stung. That said, I’ve gotten more Zen about client partings. I have more than enough work to do and I know I do my best… so if someone feels like they can find someone better, I sort of feel like they should go with god.

RS: Have you ever had to let a client go? Why? 

AB: Yes. I have bandwidth issues constantly and as much as I’d like to keep everyone forever, sometimes it just isn’t working with someone when they haven’t worked for a long time. I encourage them to see if it would work better with someone else.

RS: Who is out there that you wish you represented and why? 

AB: Tony McNamara. UTA represents, but I (personally) don’t. THE GREAT is genius and everything I love in a TV show.

RS: If you could only represent one: Writers, Directors or Talent? Why? 

AB: Writers. It’s the most interesting creative process in my opinion and I like to be a part of that.

RS: How do you keep yourself inspired? 

AB: Wine? Just kidding. I had trouble with this the last couple years between the guild situation and then Covid and all the after-effects. I hope this out-of-state move reinvigorates me. It is already. I think some change is always helpful on this front.

RS: As a new Nashville resident, what do you look forward to experiencing, something you didn’t get in L.A.? 

AB: Seasons, lower cost of living, and even though there is an entertainment community here, a sense of “normality”/slower pace of life.

RS: And lastly, what is one skill or piece of advice or something in your family that you’d love to keep passing down as a tradition?

AB: Advice from my family: Think for yourself. 

And there you have it. The Alluring Amanda B.!

For more q&a’s go to: www.rebecca-stay.com

Bio: 

Amanda Burnett is a literary and packaging agent in the television group at United Talent Agency where she began her career in 2009 after graduating from UCLA. She represents writers, directors, production companies, actors and multi-hyphenates. She brings a deep expertise in developing and managing talent, sustaining client-centric partnerships, guiding artists through the television sales process as well as connecting them with work-for-hire positions throughout the entertainment industry.

Amanda was born and raised in San Francisco. She recently relocated to Nashville to try something new. In her spare time she enjoys gardening, dancing, watching too much BRAVO and costume dramas, and breathing in the fresh air of the great outdoors.

 

ADVICE, Interview, People1 Comment

TV Executive, Wendy Steinhoff

|Wendy.Steinhoff|

First of all.  What’s wrong with my title?

I lied…. about the nutshell.  Especially when it comes to something as complicated as comedy.  Was that clickbait or me being playful?  (Hint… I’m a joyful kind of gal, so choose the latter).

I know, I digress…

I met and worked with Wendy Steinhoff during my time as President of TV for Patricia Heaton and David Hunt’s company, FourBoys Entertainment.

FourBoys had an overall deal with Warner Bros. for three years and Wendy was an executive at the studio in the comedy department.  She was “assigned” our pod, meaning she was our point person, our go-to executive for everything including to bounce ideas off of and to gauge temperatures of projects (and writers) we were interested in pursuing.  And given our deal was exclusive, anytime we were ready to take a half hour project out to the marketplace, she and the head of comedy had the power to either green-light or veto the project.

What I loved (and still love) about Wendy is her passion for TV and for writers.  She was always warm and engaging and helped us navigate through what can be a frustrating system with grace and humor.  I mean, my goodness, if you don’t have a sense of humor about it all, you’ll drive yourself crazy.

I spoke to Wendy about comedy development, note giving, what defines (for her) the secret sauce in a pitch, and so much more.

RS: What was your favorite comedy growing up?  Why?

WS: One of my fondest childhood memories is walking home from elementary school and turning on “Scooby Doo.”  I wanted to be as confident as Fred, as cool as Daphne, as smart as Velma – even though I was probably more of a scaredy-cat Shaggy.  I laughed at the corny jokes right along with the laugh track.  I think I also liked the predictable structure that the bad guys would get caught and the mystery would be explained.  All was right with the world.

RS: I read that you’ve been involved with the development of over 140 comedy pilots.  How do move through it all without feeling overwhelmed?

WS: Well, I’ve worked in Comedy Development for a long time, so those pilots were spread out over decades.  The most comedy pilots we ever shot in one season was 20, and that year I was probably overwhelmed and exhausted.  And hungry, since I was eight months pregnant with my first child.  I could always be found near craft service.

Every television pilot is its own beast – even the ones that go smoothly.  There’s always something that needs to be brainstormed or strategized.  As far as feeling overwhelmed, it is inevitable during certain parts of the process; a former boss taught me to step back and look at the big picture.  He’d say, “What’s the most important thing that we got done this week?” and then we could enjoy that success before diving back into the weeds.

RS: Comedy is so subjective, how do you decipher what you think is funny and what you think America (or the world) will find funny?

WS: Humans generally all cry at the same things, but we find very different things funny.  We do not even laugh at the same things in my department, which is fascinating and fantastic!  Of course I only have my own perspective to gauge what I find funny, and at one point that was nerve-wracking in this new job of buying comedy projects. 

On Buying When Comedy is Subjective:

Between my own sense of humor, the senses of humor of my very disparate kids, the scripts I’m constantly reading, the pitches I hear from creators who have different life experiences, and the shows I watch… I have a pretty decent overview of comedy.

But between my own sense of humor, the senses of humor of my very disparate kids, the scripts that I am constantly reading, the pitches I hear from creators who have different life experiences, and the shows I watch… I have a pretty decent overview of comedy.

Also, the fact that I am buying for one particular outlet makes it hard and easy at the same time.  I love our brand, but I also hear funny pitches for shows that I firmly believe would not be successful on ABC and, therefore, have to pass on developing them.  Those tend to be the bawdier or darker comedy pitches.

RS: What has changed (for the better and for the worse) in comedy development?  How do you find emerging talent beyond the traditional ways (I.E., manager or agent)?  Where are those diamonds in the rough?

WS: Well, the fact that there are so many outlets for content is great for storytellers and consumers.  When I started at Warner Bros., we sold to the broadcast networks.  When I left, we had dozens of places buying our shows.  That being said, it has made it harder to buy a tiny show from an unknown writer that does not have bells and whistles in the form of producers, talent, or a big, marketable hook.  In an age of clutter, you also have to think about how a show will get noticed.

In the age of clutter, you have to think about how a show will get noticed.

Something else that has changed for the better is that creators can market themselves via the internet.  You can be living outside of LA or New York and get noticed for having a great short film or a social media presence.  Of course, the same rule as above applies…it’s hard to get noticed because of the glut of material on the internet.

RS: You’ve been on both sides of the fence: Buying and Selling.  Do you have a preference?

WS: On the selling side, I loved the tight relationships I would forge with writers by going through more of the process together.  I felt like I was in the trenches with them, especially working on a lot like Warner Bros. where I could jump over to the edit bay or the stage.  I also loved the thrill of a sale, and the opportunity to work on so many different types of comedy – broadcast, cable, animation, live-action.

On the buying side, I do love being able to advocate for my projects at a level I couldn’t when I worked at an outside studio.  I am not the final decision-maker, but I do like offering my opinion.  Also, many people are nicer to you when you’re a buyer.  It shouldn’t be like that, but it is.  It was palpable in my first months at ABC.

RS: Was there ever a time you wanted to experience another aspect of TV besides comedy development?  Ever interested in drama? Reality?  Producing?  Writing?

WS: I started my career as a drama executive after having been an assistant in comedy, so my choice to return to comedy was a calculated one.  I really enjoy the social nature of comedy.  I am also interested in “family programming,” since I think the television world could always use more opportunities to bring families together, but thankfully, I get to do that with ABC Comedy.

I anticipate that I will parlay the skills I’ve learned as a buyer and seller into a producing job someday.  I love writers and am passionate about helping them realize their visions.

RS: Are there ideas or arenas you feel are evergreen?  That can ride out fads and cycles?

WS: Family comedies will always be around.  Everyone has a family, most people think their families are absurd, and those stories will always be relatable to someone. 

Family Comedies will always be around.

The trick is finding new ways of telling family stories, so they don’t feel predictable.

The trick is finding new ways of telling family stories, so they don’t feel predictable.

RS: When giving writers notes, do you find there are times you realize you’re giving a note based on what you’d prefer creatively or think is more compelling vs giving a note that speaks to what’s not working?

WS: Well, comedy is certainly subjective.  However, I have learned that it’s best for me to give feedback about what I was feeling in certain places of an outline or script or cut.  And that feeling could be the result of so many different choices; maybe the structure isn’t quite right, or a character is confusing, or the tone is off.

On Note Giving:

I’m not going to offer an opinion on what I think the exact fix is.  Asking questions is sometimes a better gauge of determining what is not quite right.

Eight times out of ten, I’m not going to offer an opinion on what I think the exact fix is.  Asking questions of the creator: “What did you want me to feel here?” is sometimes a better gauge of determining what is not quite right.

RS: What’s the best part of your job?

WS: The best part of my job is guiding writers through a business process that is not entirely creative.  Advising them on what battles to fight and how the process might unfold.  My company’s goal and the goal of the television developer is the same – to create a show audiences will love – but the journey to that is not always smooth.  I like to think that I can help clear away some of the rocks on the path to allow the writer headspace to do his or her or their best work.

I also don’t mind laughing for a living with my co-workers, who are now close friends.  Even on a hard day, SOMETHING will make me laugh.

RS: What’s the hardest?

WS: The hardest part is saying “no” to most pitches, spec scripts and pilots.  I try to remember the hours put into each project, as well as the fact that assessing them is a very subjective process.  I always want the writer or producer to have felt the process was fair – so that they will think of me the next time they have an idea to sell.

RS: Do you still get surprised? If so, what’s something recently (in the job) that has surprised you?

WS: I am surprised that I am still enjoying what I do.  This was supposed to be a short-lived thing, to give me stability when I got burnt out from going on auditions.  I am surprised that I am able to use my college degree (Theatre) in the job I currently have (assessing scripts).  So few people can say that!

RS: What’s your most embarrassing moment on the job?

WS: I truly believe that my mind blocks out embarrassing moments to save me.  Otherwise, I would spend precious time obsessing about them.  I’m sure there have been many, but I cannot think of a biggie.

RS: In what ways are you still growing as an executive?

WS: I am constantly learning about the process, about management, about the financials, about storytelling, about collaboration – and I hope that learning leads to growth.  I pray that I’m a better executive now than I was six months ago, and that I will continue to grow, even if in small ways that not everyone sees.

RS: What’s the biggest lesson you’ve learned thus far?

WS: You have to have a life in order to write – or give notes – about one.  Choosing to spend time with your family is not selfish; in fact, it might give you a story or perspective that you will use down the line.

RS: What does reading out of enjoyment look like for you?  Magazines?  Books?  Short Stories?  Non-fiction?  Is it hard to turn off your development brain?

WS: Oh my gosh, I love memoirs – which sometimes do lend themselves to development – but there is also nothing quite like getting sucked into a work of fiction that is not comedic in any way.  I remember reading Rebecca Makkai’s “The Great Believers” and just stealing any block of 15 minutes I could find to read more and more.  Let’s be honest, a home design magazine or even a thick catalog is a welcome respite, too.

RS: Are there any books out there that you’ve read, that has made you a better executive?

WS: Early on in my career, I read a few books on the history of television.  And then I’d go to the TV Academy to watch the pilot episodes of the series referenced in the books.

Since I didn’t go to film school, I tried to self-educate.  Doing that helped me fit in when my bosses would reference those classic series and who had created them.

RS: When I google “comedy pitching,” over eight million results come up.  Is there a secret sauce to pitching?  What did one of your all time favorite pitches include?

WS: My favorite pitches spend 85% of the time describing characters, 10% of the time describing the wider world or places we’ll live, and 5% of the time describing a potential jumping off point or pilot. 

My favorite pitches spend 85% of the time describing characters.

The creator of one of my more recent favorite series prefaced each character description with, “Oh, THIS one is my favorite character!” and I could tell it wasn’t a bit.  She genuinely was in love with each and every character, they were all hilarious, they had great interpersonal dynamics, and we bought the show.

RS: What is a common mistake a writer makes during a pitch? During development?

WS: For me, describing seasons beyond the first – maybe a sentence about the second – is overkill when pitching to broadcast networks.  Also, if I hear (insert any city here) described as a “character,” I tune out.

If I hear (insert any city here) described as a “character,” I tune out.

Describe characters as characters, places as places, worlds as worlds.  And different executives might have different opinions on this, but I do not want to hear a beat-by-beat description of the pilot episode.  I’d rather spend that time learning even more about the character dynamics and why they are heartfelt and funny.

RS: In general meetings, can you pinpoint the moment you see the “IT” factor in a writer?

WS: The “It” factor, which is more “the moment when I decide to champion this writer for a job,” can be predicated on so many different things.

The “moment when I decide to champion this writer for a job” can be predicated on so many different things:

…the writer’s unique outlook on life, a wicked sense of humor, sometimes it’s how they talk intelligently about the show I’m staffing.

Sometimes it’s the writer’s unique outlook on life, sometimes it’s a wicked sense of humor, sometimes it’s how they talk intelligently about the show I’m staffing.

RS: Do you have a memory of a great meeting you had with a writer?  If so, what made it great?  Any uncomfortable ones… if so, what made them uncomfortable?

WS: The uncomfortable meetings are certainly more memorable!  I’ve had a few where the writer answered my “getting to know you” questions with one or two word answers, no matter how hard I tried to put them at ease.  I had to remind myself that good writers are not always good conversationalists.

RS: What are you currently watching?

WS: I know I’m behind, but The Crown.  Having just sent my oldest to college in the UK, I have become obsessed with the ins-and-outs of royalty. It’s just insane, and yet the family dynamics are still incredibly relatable.

RS: What show could you watch over and over and over without tiring of it?  What are the ingredients (within the show) that make it so re-watchable?

WS: Golden Girls.  Stellar casting, clear characters with both flaws and warmth, terrific writing that could tackle issues in funny ways.  My teenage son and I would curl up on the couch and enjoy it equally, so that might have something to do with my affection for the show, too.

RS: Have you ever gotten star struck?

WS: I am rarely star struck.  It’s sort of weird.  Whenever I’ve met someone of note, I notice how much they have in common with typical people – the emotions are similar, even if the lifestyle or career opportunities may not be.

That said, I imagine I might be star struck if I met Stephen Colbert or Rachel Maddow.  Both are such incredibly intelligent masters at their crafts, verbal acrobats (yes, I know they work with writers), and I just feel that the way they present their points-of-view on television are services to the public.  Certainly a service to my sanity.

RS: Proudest career moment?

WS: When a veteran writer I had just given notes to said, “Can you give classes to other executives in how to give a writer notes?”  Maybe she was blowing smoke, but it definitely worked.

RS: What is your motto in life?

Motto in life:  Be flexible.  Too much of anything is a recipe for disaster.

WS: Be flexible. Too much of anything is a recipe for disaster.

There you have it!  The wonderful Wendy Steinhoff.  In a nutshell.

Thank you Wendy!  So many insights and as a bonus, I know what book to put on my Christmas list (Hint for Hubby: It’s now in my Amazon “saved for later” cart).

If you enjoyed this, you might enjoy this one about The Comedy Pitch: https://rebecca-stay.com/a-conversation-with-erika-the-comedy-pitch

BIO: 

Wendy Steinhoff is currently the Vice President of Comedy Development for the ABC Broadcast Television Network. Prior to joining ABC, she spent 18 years developing comedy on the studio side for WBTV and has been involved with the development of over 140 comedy pilots. Wendy is a proud alum of Northwestern University and lives in Los Angeles with her husband, three kids, one dog and one cat.

 

ADVICE, Interview, People1 Comment

Q&A With TV Veteran Donald Todd

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I read somewhere that wisdom = knowledge applied, so who better than the honorable Donald Todd to talk about the craft of writing? 

Several years ago when I was working as a development executive, Donald and I worked together on a Warner Bros. project that was set up at CBS and the experience was so wonderful I’ve been stalking him ever since.  He’s my go-to person when I need advice or insights into whatever frustrating process I’m in the midst of; I love his honesty, his wit and dry sense of humor, and his no-holds barred look at our industry.  Moreover, he’s damn good at what he does.

He shares many gems including his writing pet peeves, what a perfect pitch should include and how to know when a script is really done.

RS:  In regards to your creative process, where do you draw inspiration from?  How and where do the ideas show up?

DT:  Since inspiration is unreliable, I’ve come to depend more on intention:  what do I need to accomplish here, with the effort?  Is there an actress who’s looking for a comedy?  A streaming service that wants a new fun procedural?  Did I just read a book in which a minor character was the uneducated bodyguard for a high-end call girl, and wonder if there’s a relationship there worth exploring?  Point is, I give myself an assignment, and the specificity of that one thing allows the many random connections and memories and old notions and themes that are swimming in my subconscious to attach to it.  I believe the subconscious contains amazing ideas and revelations — the joy and surprise of discovery is the whole reason I write — but trying to reach in and grab them doesn’t work.

Like catching a fish by hand.  I usually have to give my brain a job… then pretend to go home for the day.  Then the ideas can sneak in on the periphery and delight me.  It’s taken me a long time to give myself permission to let the good ideas come, and to not beat myself up when they don’t.  And by a long time, I mean I haven’t yet, but I hope I get there some day.  

But because this is a job for me, I can’t wait for ideas like a wildlife photographer camped out, hoping a lion wanders by.  So I write stuff down.  Anything.  The first thought, the most useless one, a scene idea, a character notion… it just tells the good stuff that it’s okay to come out now.  And I do it BY HAND — I’m a huge advocate for the connection between the hand and the brain.  I don’t use the computer until I’m actually writing.  It’s not for thinking, or creating, it’s for suddenly remembering that instead of writing I need to buy something.

The first thought, the most useless one, a scene idea, a character notion… it just tells the good stuff that it’s okay to come out now.

And sure, you’re saying, this is just what an old guy does, he doesn’t get that the rest of us think on our devices.  Okay.  And I’m saying no you don’t. 

RS: Has your process changed over the years?  If so, how? 

DT:  I bought a cork board.  I used to do it on the floor of my office.  Having dogs changed that.  Otherwise, occasionally I will use an app for index cards, and there are some better ones available now that we’ve been forced to work away from writer’s rooms… but they just don’t show enough at one time.  I want to see the WHOLE STORY, with different colors of cards for characters’ stories, and how it all feels together.  Once it’s digital, it just feels — and I know this is counterintuitive — set.  Digital is still my last step. 

RS:  Do you have any pet peeves when it comes to formatting?  

DT:  How much time do you have to argue about double-spacing after a period?  I’ve given up fighting it, but not given in:  I double-space because that’s how the Bible was written.  Or something.  I can’t remember.  But there’s no reason to stop.  Besides that, I just tell people, find a script and make yours look like that.  It’s not hard.  In single-camera scripts, the parentheticals do NOT go in the body of the dialogue!  That is lazy and makes you look like you didn’t make any effort to learn.  I don’t want to be your teacher, this is a profession, so look professional.  And here’s one that baffles me, but I see it a LOT:  don’t just end your script or act without putting END OF ACT or END OF EPISODE or whatever.  All the time, I read scripts where the scene just stops.  Is there another page missing?  I don’t know. 

RS:  What’s a mistake writers make when it comes to action lines?  What should you not include?  Is there a tip you can give in order to make them succinct?  

DT:  The answer to this one depends on what the script is for.  If it’s a spec, then it’s a sales document, and you have to consider the reader.  What is the tone you want them to get from your action lines?  I was raised to use as few descriptions as possible, but executives are less able to imagine, so you need to really set the scene.  Use exactly that many lines, not more.  If you’re trying to show how smart YOU are, cut it out.  Show how smart the characters are.  Shane Black is a helluva writer, but he introduced that smart ass, “we both know you’re reading a script” glibness that infected every spec afterward.  As if that’s what got him the million bucks, not the story.  So keep it simple, but do not assume the reader will do any work. 

RS:  Character Descriptions:  I worked with a writer that heard mixed advice when it came to dropping ethnicity into the description.  What’s your take? 

DT:  Only if it is key to the story or the life of the character.  Not just to describe them.  If the scene is about being of one ethnicity or another, or it would be different if they were different, then you need to put it in.  But don’t cast your script.  You limit the possibilities, and you want to allow all the reasons to say yes that you can.

RS:  Once you’re sold on what your next project is, how do you proceed?  Index cards, white board?  How do you organize your initial scribblings?

DT:  Back to that notebook, and a pen.  Could be a pencil for some; I use a fine-tip blue pen.  Always have.  It’s also the reason I use the same coffee cup every day — the sameness signals a mental readiness to write.  An association.  After letting myself write down every single thing I can think of about the idea, in no order, I begin to prepare a pitch (this answer supposes that I have to pitch this to sell it; for what I’d do if I was just going to write it, skip forward a bit).  That’s the hardest thing in the world, and I mean of any job anywhere, including crab fishing.  It’s like that final paper you had to do your senior year, except your livelihood rests on it.  This stage is organized by: how can I explain this idea so someone buys it?  It’s a sales tool, very simply, and designed to get you to what you want to do.  

If the question is, how do I begin once I begin, that takes me to the notebook again, but now we add INDEX CARDS.  In my scribblings about every single thing I can think of about the show, are scenes and lines and thematic ideas and random bits, and everything goes on a card.  Scenes go on white cards.  Ideas that might be IN scenes go on another color card.  Me, I use a cork board.  With push pins.  If I’m in a writer’s room and there’s money for a magnetic white board with magnetic cards, awesome.  But at home, it’s index cards and a board.  I need the visual feedback of seeing the story in front of me, in space.  Structure forms from there — asking what do I KNOW I want, where do I KNOW I want it… then I fill in. 

RS:  What’s some advice you wished you had gotten when first starting out?

DT:  Write shorter.  Start later in the scene.  Be less in love with the dialogue and more conscious of the emotional core of each scene.  Also, more practically: the executives or producers are not out to get you, or make the script worse.  Their notes might not be the way to make it better, but their intentions are positive.  So listen to find the intention, and if it’s unclear, ask.  Then try your best to do the note, if it’s not obviously bad.  There might be — generally is — a better way to get to where you’re going that you wouldn’t have found without trying the note.

RS:  With all of your experience, what’s still difficult to navigate?

DT:  What’s still difficult, and always will be, for any real writer, is to do the work:  to craft a story, to outline it, to give the characters genuine human motivations, to do the work.  It’s just hard.  I guess once I realized that, that made it easier, paradoxically.  I didn’t automatically assume that because I was stuck that I was terrible at this.  I mean, I am, but I don’t assume it anymore. 

What’s still difficult… for any real writer, is to do the work.  It’s just hard.

What’s easier — but only a little — is believing that when I’m stuck, I WILL figure out a solution.  That just comes from having done it enough; it’s based on observation and memory, even though my brain is still completely convinced I’ve written my last word and have been found out as a fraud.  I’m better able now to do what my wife does when I talk, and that’s to say “Mm, hm,” and not listen. 

RS:  What advice can you give for writers first entering a writer’s room?  

DT:  Wait for the showrunner to find a seat, and don’t sit beside them.  Or across from them.  Too much pressure.  Sit near the board, because you’ll probably be asked to write stuff on it because you’re new.  As for when to talk, how much to say… those are tough questions.  Whatever you choose will probably be wrong, at first, because you don’t know what you’re doing. That’s fine — everyone in the room was there at some point, and most are nice and encouraging.  Your job is to listen, and if you have something to contribute, do.  Don’t talk just to show you can, or to say you don’t like an idea.  These things are not helpful, and your job is to be helpful. Before too long, you’ll find the rhythm, you’ll understand better what the showrunner is looking for, you’ll realize your ideas are not worse than anyone else’s, and you’ll talk. 

Also?  Don’t re-pitch an idea that was rejected.  Just don’t.  Even if it might actually save the show.  Not worth it. 

In a writer’s room your job is to listen, and if you have something to contribute, do.

RS:  What does the perfect pitch include? What should it not include? 

DT:  Pass.  Okay, I’ll try, but I really have no idea.  I’m good at pitching, but they’re all different.  I’m writing one now (did I mention it’s my least favorite part of the job, by far?) where the producing partners want the pilot story and the first season’s major turns and surprises, plus the characters’ arcs, and it’s exhausting.  But to answer your question, the perfect pitch is one that paints a picture for the buyer of just what your show is.  They have NO IDEA what’s in your head, so make them see it.  Why do you want to write this?  Or need to?  That matters a lot.  Why now, that an audience can hook into?  What else is it like, so I understand the language we’re speaking here?  What is the key character dynamic?  What is the tone?  What will they care about?  That’s the big one: make the buyer feel the emotion.  A perfect pitch makes the buyer say of course we need this, I’m surprised we don’t already have it.  

RS:  How many drafts do you go through before the studio or network sees your official “first draft”? 

DT:  That depends on my producing partners, which I usually have — a pod or company of some kind.  I’ll do a couple of drafts before they see it, and usually several more — three, sometimes — based on their thoughts, before the studio does.  If I’ve chosen my partners well, by the time the studio gets it, the studio notes are minimal.  By the way, since I write on notepad first, the first draft I type on computer is already a second draft.  So I’ll be on the third, really before I deliver anything.

RS:  If you’re writing a script on spec and no one is waiting for it or you don’t have a studio or network involved, how do you know when it’s fully baked to your satisfaction?

DT:  It’s been awhile.  But I can say that I know when it’s done when I can say this was the intention.  It can take any number of attempts to find an expression of your intention.  You might change your intention in the looking for it.  So it’s done when you can support it and defend it and not apologize for it or make excuses or belittle it at all.  When you can say, ‘This is it, this is what I want you to read.”  The only spec drama script I wrote (which is the first thing of mine YOU read, “The Night”) took two weeks from idea to first draft, and the polished first draft is what I sent out. 

Your script is done when you can support it and defend it and not apologize for it or make excuses.

It just came out that way, and I was happy.  Well, as happy as I get, anyway.

RS:  Do you have an opinion on LookBooks? Have you ever created one for a pitch? Or a finished spec script?  

DT:  I hate them.  We’re just training the execs to be less and less able to listen and imagine.  And I hate extra work.  I will, however, bring in some photos to illustrate the setting or tone of the show.  A specific location, say, if it’s unique and key to the show, or a still of a scene from a movie this is like, so we can all say, “Oh, okay, I get that.”  If that’s a LookBook, then fine. 

RS:  And lastly, what’s a show on the air that you wish you created?  

DT:  Jeopardy.  So much money.  Other than that… Patriot, on Amazon.  Not “on the air,” but I guess everything lives forever.  Still being made now?  Succession.  

And there you have it… wise, wise words from the damn talented, Donald Todd.

For more like this one, try: https://rebecca-stay.com/writer-director-betsy-not-betty-thomas

Bio: 

Donald Todd created the Christina Applegate-starring ABC comedy series Samantha Who?, which won an Emmy and a People’s Choice Award.  He also has worked on NBC’s This is Us, ABC’s Ugly Betty and Fox’s Sleepy Hollow.  Deadline

 

 

ADVICE, Interview, People1 Comment

Erika Kennair: The Comedy Pitch

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Swimming in the TV executive pool, Erika is one of those execs that’s in a league of her own. She’s smart, sassy, and passionate. Oh, and funny. She is indeed funny.

The conversation below took place while she was working at ABC in the comedy department, but she’s currently President of Production at Extracurricular, working with Malala Yousafzai in an overall deal with Apple TV+.

I’m not gonna lie. I’m a bit jealous that she gets to work with such an incredible human being. I mean… who wouldn’t be?

RS: I wanted to start with a story that ran in many circles around town years ago. It sort of became an urban legend. It involved a network, a comedy executive and a writer. (No, they don’t go into a bar or try to screw in a lightbulb.)

So, a writer is pitching to an executive and he stops mid-way through. The executive says, “why did you stop?” And he says, “is everything ok? Am I doing ok?” and she says, “yeah, you’re doing great” and he replies, “well, you might want to tell that to your face.”

RS/EK: Whoaaaaa.

RS: Right? But for me, it’s a very telling story, whether it’s true or not, because it goes to show you that the temperature in any given room is crucial. The writer probably did not sell that project –

EK: Well, it depends on how big the executives guilt complex was…

RS: In a comedy pitch, executives are expected to laugh, but they’re hearing hundreds and hundreds of pitches for several months at a time and more times than not, most are not funny. To be honest, most probably don’t hit the mark on many levels. Having said that, all creatives walking into those rooms deserve some warmth and not a stone cold blank look being fired back at them.

(But I digress)

Moving On… How much content should go into the official pitch? I love writers to know their characters and their world, but at what point is it too much?

EK: I think that the standard rule – what do they say? 20 minutes? I think that’s fair. I think as far as the content itself, you know the points you’re hitting, right? You’re hitting your characters, you’re hitting your pilot, you’re hitting your world and those dynamics, I think it’s about getting the dynamics of the characters out, where the conflicts gonna come from because especially in comedy we’re looking for where those character conflicts are coming from. I think limit yourself to maybe two to three examples of each person’s personality, that’s where a lot of the overflow comes from.

RS: Where is that fine line between I need to know more about the characters or wow, I know their whole life story now?

EK: I think it’s about making me feel like I know you know them. Faith that I know you know where these characters are going. Like, I was not in the Brooklyn Nine-Nine pitch, but one of things that always gets back to you was that Die Hard inspired him to be a cop. And so he’s looking for that Yippee Ki Yay and that tells you a lot – that little nugget about that character is super fun because you know that every situation he’s going into is informed by that Yippee Ki Yay.

On how much to pitch when it comes to your Character(s):

It’s about making me feel like I know you know them.

The fact that also his dad was never there and he was looking out for his mom, you get that it’s not just about the fun, there is a real desire to protect. So, those two tidbits about the character together, inform a lot about who you’re getting and tells you where stories are going to come from because you get that he’s looking to have fun, but that he’s always going to look out for the best interest of people and he’s always going to save people.

RS: How many pitches do you buy on average?

EK: Between 50-60.

RS: And of those 50 to 60, how many of those go to pilot?

EK: 10. 10-12.

RS: Is it hard to listen to your gut?

EK: No. (Laughs). I’m really blessed because my group is really supportive and collaborative. We have very different tastes… but we all respect each other and having different perspectives is really helpful.

RS: Yes, because comedy is very subjective…

EK: Yeah… Yeah it is, because I’ve been in work environments when it is hard to trust your gut because your gut could get you fired, but at ABC, bottom to top there’s not that fear based.

RS: In regard to the best pitch you’ve heard, what do you think the writer provided that others did not… besides the funny, what do you think the rare ingredient was that set them a part?

EK: A pitch that really blew me away, bought it in the room with no question, which is not usually something that happens. This pitch was as moving as it was hysterical. The characters were all super fleshed out… at the end of it I was like she should teach a class on pitching because she just nailed the pitch.

RS: What was it about it that she nailed? I want specifics!

EK: Everything. It was the perfect amount of time and thought distribution to each character to each situation. When she pitched out the characters (this was a big thing), when she pitched out the characters, a lot of what she did was talk about their arc (because I think a lot of the time people tell you who the person is, but not where they’re going) and she gave a really nice sense of here’s who this person is now and here’s who they’ll be by the end of the series. It was kind of Wizard of Oz, is how I would describe the pitch because (for example) here’s Dorothy, she described her really well and you saw where she was going… and then you picked up the Tin Man, and you saw how the Tin Man affected her and how she and he would grow.

Have a sense of who your main character is now and who they’ll be by the end of the series.

We saw how the next person … and so it was like every time she talked about a new character it was how that character was going to inform the main character. So, it was like she was collecting these people along the way and it was just really lovely because you got where they were going, and where she was going and how they were all gonna affect each other.

RS: Do you like when they infuse dialogue within the character descriptions?

EK: Yeah. If you can give a quote that is, “Oh, that’s super funny, I’ve never heard that before.” If you can say this happened and this is how she would react and you see how different it is, it’s a nice, quick shorthand.

RS: Do you have any pet-peeves?

EK: Sure. When studios, agents, producers, when they stare at us, when we’re hearing the pitch and when their stare becomes more powerful than the pitch.

From a writer perspective, a big pet-peeve is the desperate, “I’ll make it anything you need it to be” – like if I have a question, it’s “well, whatever you want the answer to be” it’s then no, you don’t have an opinion then. You want to know that they have a strong POV.

On Pet-Peeves:

A big pet-peeve is the desperate, “I’ll make it anything you need it to be… it’s then no, you don’t have an opinion then. You want to know they have a strong POV.

Worth Repeating: Have a strong POV

The weirdest pitch I ever heard was, a guy came into my office, literally like old school Tom Cruise style, bounced on my sofa, like was, “ba, ba, ba, ba ba…” sort of talked a little about what the show was (I guess) and then left.

RS: Ok. Last Question. What’s a saying or word as an executive that you’ve heard being overused or you’ve overused yourself?

EK: Outline-itis. “Maybe it’s a case of outline-itis. Maybe once you get to script I’ll get it. This could be a case of outline-itis, but I don’t think your main character has a through line.” The other one I never get is like, “bananas on bananas.” Or “chocolate on chocolate” ’cause both scenarios are delicious and I don’t see how they’re a problem. But like when you’re overusing something, they’re like, “oh, it might be bananas on bananas, but…. delicious.” Maybe it should be, “this is liverwurst on liverwurst.”

So… here are the takeaways:

– Don’t get sidelined with too much small talk: Be charming and cordial, but then dive right in. You have about 20 minutes to knock their socks off.

– Character conflicts = comedy gold: Be specific in where those conflicts come from. Know what you’re pitching and be secure in that vision. Don’t ever say, “I’ll make it whatever you want it to be!” Executives can smell desperation a mile away.

– And lastly, make sure the pitch is equal parts touching as it is funny: Look for that emotional connection.

And there you have it. Wise words from the extraordinary Erika Kennair.

For more on Erika, her most recent interview with Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/goldiechan/2022/10/20/innovative-encouragement-with-executive-erika-kennair/?sh=4903937f7b83

And on comedy pitching, you might also enjoy: https://rebecca-stay.com/tv-executive-wendy-steinhoff-comedy-development-in-a-nutshell

Bio:

Erika is President of Production at Extracurricular, working with Malala Yousafzai in an overall deal with Apple. She most recently was Senior Vice President, Development, at Berlanti Productions, overseeing the procurement and development of new scripted and unscripted series for both network and cable/streaming. She produced Golden Globe Critics Choice, PGA, DGA and SAG nominated, “The Flight Attendant” for HBO Max (Which she was nominated for a PGA Award for), “You” for Netflix and “The Powerpuff Girls” for CW. She recently oversaw “Helter Skelter” for Epix, “Prodigal Son” for FOX and “Batwoman” for CW. Next up she has “The Girls on the Bus” for Netflix, “Spoonbenders” for Showtime, “For Your Own Good” and “Dead Boy Detective Agency” for HBO Max, as well as many yet to be announced projects.